Wednesday, November 5, 2008

Prop 8

It seems as though ignorance and discrimination have prevailed thus far... I guess we can't always get what we want - I just figured when it comes to RIGHTS we would be intelligent enough as a people to SHOW LOVE to one another... Maybe I am just too naive. Hopefully the Supreme Court will overturn Prop 8.

Supreme Court Asked to Overturn Prop 8

SACRAMENTO - California voters have adopted a constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage, overturning the state Supreme Court decision that gave gay couples the right to wed just months ago.
Wednesday gay legal groups asked California's highest court to overturn the same-sex marriage ban approved by the state's voters.

The petition filed Wednesday asks the Supreme Court to invalidate Proposition 8 on the grounds that voters did not have the authority to make such a dramatic change in state law. It argues that the measure revised, rather than amended the California Constitution, and therefore first should have been submitted to the state Legislature.

The Supreme Court refused to hear a petition making similar claims in June, when gay rights activists tried to get Proposition 8 struck from the ballot.

Two married women say they plan to sue, arguing that the amendment is unconstitutional because it violates their rights to equal protection under the law.

The passage of Proposition 8 represents a crushing political defeat for gay rights activists, who had hoped public opinion on the contentious issue had shifted enough to help them defeat the measure.

The rest of the article here.


Katrina said...

I totally agree... it's sad.

adam said...

I disagree. I posted reasons why I am pro Prop 8 to a friend's blog and I will add them below:

The first reason is that I disagree in principle with the rationale that the state Supreme Court used in striking down the previous law. I think I remember that they cited a 1948 ruling as precedent where they ruled that a ban on interracial marriage was unconstitutional. So right there, I believe that the court was overreaching in declaring that interracial marriage == gay marriage. They are not the same thing and I wish they would have used a stronger reasoning in overruling something the voters overwhelmingly approved of. In just the same way, I don’t believe that the courts ok’ing polygamy would be reasonable given the precedent.

But overall, the main reason I am pro Prop 8 is just that I don’t believe that gay marriage is by definition marriage. That does not mean that I don’t respect gay people or that I want them to have fewer rights; I am all for removing whatever the 7 differences are between civil unions and marriages so that they both give the same legal benefits. But I just am not comfortable with it being commonly held as marriage, which is the real issue here. Embedded in this discussion is the question of “is gay marriage on the same level as heterosexual marriage”. If that was not true, then we would focus on adding rights to civil unions instead of calling it marriage. But instead, the courts decided for us that gay marriage is a fundamental value that we want to pass on as a culture.

cpm said...

Hey Adam. Thanks for your comments. Isn't it wonderful that we live in a country that allows us to have free speech and the ability to have discussions like this. Anyway, a few points I have to throw out there - not that you need to agree or even care about what I have to say, but just wanted to get it out in the open.

How many of your gay friends do you feel 100% comfortable walking up to and telling that you feel as though they should not have the right to marry? That you are 'better' than them (that is what you are effectively saying by voting yet) because you believe you have the right to marry and they do not (or that your 'marriage' is any more legit than something that they could have)? And how many of those people, after you tell them that you feel they should not be allowed to have what you consider marriage, would be open to hearing about your LOVING and FORGIVING God?

Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. I know that my friends that I have talked to after Prop 8 results came back have said that they feel like SECOND CLASS CITIZENS - is that what Jesus came to say? That people are any less important than others? Does not Jesus REJOICE after ANYONE comes back to Him? Does He not pursue and YEARN for the lost of the world? I am not the one that is called to judge and condemn others. We have ALL fallen short and deserve DEATH for our sins, but for some reason the American Christian culture believes that homosexuality is the WORST sin and therefore punishable by removing rights for them (or at least that is what essentially they are saying). Would you now vote to take away the rights for adulterer's to marry? Or liars? Because I feel like I have read somewhere that ALL SINS ARE SINS... I do fall short and sin, you fall short and sin and so do those around us, but I do NOT believe that telling someone who they can and cannot LOVE will help spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am against the death penalty because I believe no one is ever TOO FAR GONE. God will always accept people, as long as they turn to Him. It is NOT my place to say that someone is un-redeemable because I don't believe that people are - God works in mystereous ways. It seems as though when you (and by 'you' I don't mean you particularly I mean 'you' as a collective whole that voted to pass this proposition) say that someone else cannot marry, you are saying that I am better than you (and don't worry, I have talked to many people and that is how they feel the state is treating them right now). If you are saying I am better than you, why in their right mind would they listen to you when you condemn them and tell them they need to turn to your God... How can they believe that your God will accept them if you cannot? I am not saying you need to agree with everyone's opinions, but I am saying that you should LOVE them no matter what and I do NOT see love in telling someone that they cannot marry (WHICH IS BASED ON LOVE).

[I think a HUGE issue is that most of the people that vote YES are people that have no contact with any gays, so therefore can't put a face to who they are actually stripping of rights. I know for me personally my wedding day was one of my happiest days and no matter who someone is or what they believe I cannot imagine saying that they should not be able to share in a similar joy.]

Also, one last thing, voters did not OVERWHELMINGLY approve of this measure... hence the reason for the call to count the absentee ballots (since the race was so close).

Enough from me. Again, I am not saying that you need to agree with my viewpoints, I am simply stating them, just like I do not need to agree with yours.

LOVE - Carlee

adam said...

Hey thanks for the follow-up comments. I like discussing this a lot, because I am extremely passionate about this. I do want to clarify that in my first comment, I was referring to the previous law that was adopted by voters in 2000, which I believe was overwhelmingly adopted (something like 62-38 or 60-40).

How gay people view my stance on this issue is very important to me, as I share an office with an openly gay man and work with several other gay men. I have come to the point where I am comfortable explaining my view to them should they desire to understand it. The summary of my view is that God has more for them than homosexual relationships, just like God has more for men who are addicted to other kinds of sexual sin.

I am blessed to be a part of a sexual purity ministry at my church and know many men who struggle with same sex attraction but have chosen not to live that lifestyle. They understand that having this struggle is not a sin, but giving into it is. So when I state my views, it is not out of ignorance of the dynamics of same sex attraction. There are many men who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle to be happily married now. This is not an isolated occurrence and it is not magic. One example is this man's blog ( which states my views way better than I could. But just like I chose to put aside pornography in my life because God was calling me to more, homosexual men are doing the same.

I think that it is extremely dangerous to argue that God would tolerate homosexual lifestyles. After Jesus stood up for the adulterous woman, he said "Neither do I condemn you. Therefore, go and sin no more" (John 8:11). This is how Jesus would respond. I am not condemning homosexuals, because we all have our own sin. But I also am standing up for the second part of that verse "Therefore, go and sin no more". I deeply regret the alienation that many feel after the passage of Proposition 8, but that does not change my stance on this view. This is not about delegating a certain group of people as second-class citizens; this is about delegating a lifestyle as second-class. Over and over I have heard from men who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle that it was extremely broken and that they desire for others to come out of it too. There is a reason for this; God gave us clear instructions about how to live our lives because He knew that it would give us the best shot at happiness. As those who are called to minister to others, we owe it to them to point them in the direction that will lead to true satisfaction.

If we do not stand up for Godly living, it will negatively affect our cities. Just go to San Francisco for a weekend and observe a S&M parade and you will see what we are headed for, as David describes in Psalm 12:8: "The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored
among men." This is not the world that I want my children to grow up in.

cpm said...

Hey Adam! Thanks so much for your comments!! I am on my way out the door but the last thing I want to say is that I do not feel like we are called to hold the FALLEN world to Christian values. Yes, if someone considers themselves a Christian and they should be held accountable for their sins, but I do not believe that this is the issue here. I am not saying that Jesus would be tolerant, I am saying that Jesus would be LOVING and to me (and this is just my view) voting yes on things like Prop 8 are not loving. I am not saying Jesus would have voted no, I am just saying for me and for my opinions, I will vote for love and peace every chance I get.

Thanks again for your thoughts!!

Love - Car